Hagen, Bagich and Pryor are the only ones who are vulnerable over this. Factoring in the the NRSC is wholly incompetent, they will fumble taking these clowns on.

Quote: Justme wrote in post #1

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Last night NBC News reported that that the "Obama Administration knew millions could not keep their health insurance" but still campaigned across the country promising Americans otherwise.

President Obama was able to postpone the implementation of Obamacare until after he secured re-election. But for Democrats up for re-election in 2014, their less than honest claim to their constituents will now be front and center next November.

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“…. coverage for a variety of services, including - preventive and wellness services, coverage of mental health and substance use disorders, maternity coverage, chronic disease management, and many other benefits and services”.

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If I have gone through my entire life being drug-free and without an alcohol problem, I do not want substance abuse coverage but “Pro-Choice” does not apply to ObamaCare.

After December 30, 2014, I will be forced to sign up for the extra coverage I specifically did not want or be dropped by Humana. Or, if I choose, I can start paying extra for the unwanted extra coverage right now.

Being male, I ass/u/me that Obama won’t force me to get maternity coverage but, …. you never know with Obama. I’ll have to ask my liberal lesbian friends out here how they like being forced to pay for maternity coverage. Humana also advises me:

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“In addition to your two Humana coverage options above, you may want to learn about the other options available to you through the new Health Insurance Marketplace …..Please review this information at Healthcare.gov prior to making a final decision.”

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Now, that’s funny.

In this neck of the woods, we had a lot of low-income patients. Yes, many of them were poor by choice or for lack of trying but not everybody is blessed with a Cuban engine like Ted Cruz and I are. The bottom line is that I provided a ton of pro bono medical care. So did many of my other medical colleagues. Things are changing now. One of then told me that, after the New Year, he will take on no more pro bono care. He will tell them, “You are required by law to have insurance. Get it.”

Except, those people can’t sign on to Healthcare.gov and will get a sticker shock premium and a huge deductable they cannot afford when they do.

In my travels, I have seen this entire Government shutdown drama unfold in different parts of the country. I fully understand Ted Cruz’s Cuban passion (which I often have to control in myself). However, unlike Cruz, I was in the military and I have never been anchored to one geographic place. The travels that started with the Navy have never actually stopped. I’ve been around a lot more and lived longer than Ted Cruz has. What this Cuban has learned is that what works great in Miami may not work very well outside of Miami. So it is with Texas or the deep South or San Francisco or the mid-West.

A Government shutdown is considered FANTASTIC in the conservative West where I was a month ago. In the eyes of 70% of Americans, however, (the news media has Obama’s back, remember) that sort of tactic is poison.

And for what purpose?

To stop ObamaCare?

We should not want to stop ObamaCare anymore than anybody should have wanted to stage a sit-in protest right under the Lakehurst Naval Air Station airship docking tower on May 6, 1937 to keep Nazi zeppelins from flying to the USA.

As the dictum attributed to Napoleon goes: “Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself.”

What Napoleon actually said is quoted in the 1855 military tretise “Considerations on Tactics and Strategy” but the point is the same:

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Previous to the commencement (tactically speaking) of the battle of Austerlitz, the allies attempted a flank march in column to turn the right flank of Napoleon. He restrained his marshals, who were eager to attack, saying, “the enemy is making a false move, why should we interrupt him?”

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You want to destroy the Nazi zeppelin Hindenburg? The sooner it arrives to dock at Lakehurst Naval Air Station, the sooner your wish will come true. “Why should we interrupt …”?

Ted Cruz is only a “hemi-Cuban” and there is an old Cuban saying that he may not know: “Nadie escarmienta por cabeza ajena.” (“Nobody learns a lesson through somebody else’s head.”)

What that saying means is that you can tell left-wing American liberals how bad things are under Castro in Cuba until you are blue in the face for decade after decade after decade and they just will not believe it.

What that saying means is that (and I know of few liberals that have undergone this epiphany) when a liberal goes off to live for several months in Cuba among the Cuban people, away from the “tourist ghettos”, sees how the Cuban Government treats his new Cuban friends and that liberal comes back, he is proclaiming that Castro is a “Fascist”. “Fascist” …. “Communist” …. Whatever. The point is that the liberal learned that Castro was an SOB “por su propia cabeza” (“through his very own head”).

Likewise, a wooden stake will never be driven through ObamaCare by simply telling people that it is bad when Obama and the media will keep telling them that ObamaCare is better than sex. Like Castro, ObamaCare needs to be experienced to fully recognize how bad it is.

“But many Americans will suffer in 2014!”

So what? Allow the Democrats to own that suffering. They own ObamaCare 100%

Do not believe for one minute that the majority of the American electorate that re-elected Obama will thank Ted Cruz for “saving” them from ObamaCare. Ted Cruz will simply be demonized as the “terrorist” that took away from America something that was better than sex.

It is better that America (myself included) suffers through a year of cancelled insurance policies and higher premiums and higher deductibles so that America is ready to tar and feather the Democrats in November of 2014 than to save ObamaCare from itself in 2014 and have America go to the polls in November 2014 believing that ObamaCare, the Fairy Tale, is actually real and that the evil GOP stole it from them.

The ObamaCare Hindenburg has just made contact with the Lakehurst Naval Air Station airship docking tower and is beginning to burn. Let it crash. Let it burn. Don’t try to avert the disaster. The resulting fireball will be featured in History books for decades to come.

Quote: Polybius wrote in post #3

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<snip>

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Good to see you, Polybius.

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It is better that America (myself included) suffers through a year of cancelled insurance policies and higher premiums and higher deductibles so that America is ready to tar and feather the Democrats in November of 2014 than to save ObamaCare from itself in 2014 and have America go to the polls in November 2014 believing that ObamaCare, the Fairy Tale, is actually real and that the evil GOP stole it from them.

The ObamaCare Hindenburg has just made contact with the Lakehurst Naval Air Station airship docking tower and is beginning to burn. Let it crash. Let it burn. Don’t try to avert the disaster. The resulting fireball will be featured in History books for decades to come.

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You make a good case for letting it implode - the same case that most conservative TV pundits are making. And given the McClown quality of GOP "leadership" it's probably the best course to take.

But allow me a question that I would ask one of those pundits if I were given the opportunity:

Can you name one - just one - government "entitlement" that once established has ever gone away? Because I cannot.

And given the sorry state of the so-called opposition party we're stuck with, I see them "fixing" Zero-care rather than scrapping it.

(oh - and let me add my "welcome back" to you also. Your posts are always intelligent and insightful.)

Quote: Weird Tolkienish Figure wrote in post #4

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Quote: Polybius wrote in post #3

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Being male, I ass/u/me that Obama won’t force me to get maternity coverage but, …. you never know with Obama.

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You're a wise man Polybius and I agree with you about everything except for one thing: Obamacare mandates maternity care for everyone regardless of sex.

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http://cnsnews.com/news/article/craig-millward/has-man-ever-delivered-baby-sebelius-i-don-t-think-so

Has a Man Ever Delivered a Baby? Sebelius: ‘I Don’t Think So’ -

Rep. Renee Ellmers (R-N.C.) asked Sebelius, “Now as far as the essential health benefits, correct me if I’m wrong, do men not have to buy maternity coverage?”

Sebelius: “Policies will cover maternity coverage for the young and the healthy—”

Ellmers: “Including men?”

Sebelius: “30-year-olds will also have a choice of a catastrophic plan which has no maternity coverage?”

Ellmers “The catastrophic, but the men are required to purchase maternity coverage?”

Sebelius: “The insurance policy has benefits whether you use them or not, and one of the benefits will be maternity coverage, mental health coverage, domestic violence coverage.”

Ellmers: “And that is why health care premiums are increasing, because we’re forcing them to buy things they will never need. Thank you, madam chairman.”

Sebelius: “The individual policies cover families. Men often do need maternity coverage for their spouses and for their families, yes.”

Ellmers: “A single male age 32 does not need maternity coverage. To the best of your knowledge has a man ever delivered a baby?”

Sebelius: “I don’t think so.” -

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Quote: Rufus T Firefly wrote in post #7

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Zitat

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It is better that America (myself included) suffers through a year of cancelled insurance policies and higher premiums and higher deductibles so that America is ready to tar and feather the Democrats in November of 2014 than to save ObamaCare from itself in 2014 and have America go to the polls in November 2014 believing that ObamaCare, the Fairy Tale, is actually real and that the evil GOP stole it from them.

The ObamaCare Hindenburg has just made contact with the Lakehurst Naval Air Station airship docking tower and is beginning to burn. Let it crash. Let it burn. Don’t try to avert the disaster. The resulting fireball will be featured in History books for decades to come.

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You make a good case for letting it implode - the same case that most conservative TV pundits are making. And given the McClown quality of GOP "leadership" it's probably the best course to take.

But allow me a question that I would ask one of those pundits if I were given the opportunity:

Can you name one - just one - government "entitlement" that once established has ever gone away? Because I cannot.

And given the sorry state of the so-called opposition party we're stuck with, I see them "fixing" Zero-care rather than scrapping it.

(oh - and let me add my "welcome back" to you also. Your posts are always intelligent and insightful.)

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Good question. The answer is that actual “entitlement programs” are paid through taxes that are taken from most Americans in payroll deductions. A Government entitlement is essentially on “Auto-pilot”.

With ObamaCare, you are dealing with a necessity for pro-active human behavior in the Real World. I have a ton of such experience. Obama and his advisors have zero such experience.

For ObamaCare to work, actual people have to voluntarily sign up and actual people have to voluntarily fork over actual money out of their own actual pockets. Except for the “pre-existing condition” patients under Medicare age, that simply will not happen.
That is its fatal flaw since it is a bad product at a bad price for the majority of people who do not have a pre-existing condition.

Obama believes that America is filled with millions of Americans who have no medical care and will trip over themselves to sign up for ObamaCare. I, on the other hand, know perfectly well that such people get medical care because I have spent an entire medical career treating such people for free or for a Medic-aide pittance, often at 3:00 AM. I know that many of those people did not even have Medic-Aid because they had been to lazy to even apply for it. (That is where my charity ended. Either they got their arse down to the Medic-Aid office to get enrolled so I could get the Medic-Aid pittance or they would be turned over to Collections. I’m a soft touch but only up to a point. If I could get out of bed at 3:00 AM, they could get to the Medic-Aid Office at 3:00 PM.)

Will those people jump through the hoops of ObamaCare policies with high premiums and high deductibles and rebates? Hell, no. They are perfectly happy where they are now. The Obama administration refuses to release ObamaCare enrollment numbers but news agencies have been able to get numbers out of some state exchanges and the vast majority of sign ups have been for Medic-Aid, not ObamaCare.

The young will not sign up. Remember our youth. We were indestructible. What idiot expects a 27 year old male that believes he is indestructible to pay $300 per month to avoid a $95 or a 1% of income penalty? Obama. Many of the young will not sign up. Those that do will see premiums skyrocket and they will be royally pissed. They will not consider ObamaCare an “entitlement”.

The employers? They don’t need to sign up for ObamaCare either. Obama has never owned a business or had a payroll. I did. As a business owner, if I cannot afford to be forced to pay much higher insurance costs, I know that I can save money by getting 40 hours of work out of two part time workers instead of one full-time worker. Inexperienced Obama never considered that.

With some companies, they may decide to do away with insurance all together since the penalties they will pay will be less than the higher insurance costs. Inexperienced Obama thinks business will never do that. I know that you can only push a business owner so far before he takes his money and says “F*** this”. I’m not yet 60 but I am retired and typing this on my boat on a “workday”. Business owners will only sacrifice themselves so much.

Where will those newly uninsured go? To the ObamaCare exchanges. Where you can’t even log in. Where people that got “free” insurance from their company will now be looking at huge “sticker-shock” premiums for the first time in their lives and cursing Obama. They will not consider ObamaCare World an “entitlement”.

ObamaCare will simply starve to death as the only ones who flock to it will be the “Pre-existing condition patients below Medicare age”. The Death Spiral then begins for any insurance company stupid enough to stay in an ObamaCare exchange.

At that point, the GOP might have to ask if the best solution would be a single-payer, high risk pool for those people (that will lose money but which the Government will subsidize) while the rest of us are left alone.

My Miami Dolphins are playing on Thursday Night Football in half an hour (we will lose) so this was a little rushed. Can discuss more later. No TV on the boat, so, off to the Sports Bar. Actually, life after Atlas Shrugs is pretty good.

Thank you polybius.

One thing even most conservatives don't realize is that they hid a public option into Obamacare. See the article I posted. The government will start directly offering insurance next year. It's designed so that private companies will not be able to compete.

That is how well eventually move into single payer.

Quote: Polybius wrote in post #9

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My Miami Dolphins are playing on Thursday Night Football in half an hour (we will lose) so this was a little rushed. Can discuss more later. No TV on the boat, so, off to the Sports Bar.

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@Polybius wrote:
"Obama believes that America is filled with millions of Americans who have no medical care and will trip over themselves to sign up for ObamaCare. I, on the other hand, know perfectly well that such people get medical care because I have spent an entire medical career treating such people for free or for a Medic-aide pittance, often at 3:00 AM. I know that many of those people did not even have Medic-Aid because they had been to lazy to even apply for it. (That is where my charity ended. Either they got their arse down to the Medic-Aid office to get enrolled so I could get the Medic-Aid pittance or they would be turned over to Collections. I’m a soft touch but only up to a point. If I could get out of bed at 3:00 AM, they could get to the Medic-Aid Office at 3:00 PM.)

Will those people jump through the hoops of ObamaCare policies with high premiums and high deductibles and rebates? Hell, no. They are perfectly happy where they are now."
.
.
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"The young will not sign up. Remember our youth. We were indestructible. What idiot expects a 27 year old male that believes he is indestructible to pay $300 per month to avoid a $95 or a 1% of income penalty? Obama. Many of the young will not sign up. Those that do will see premiums skyrocket and they will be royally pissed. They will not consider ObamaCare an “entitlement”."

Typical of top down problem solving bureaucrats, they aren't in touch with how the very people they're trying to help think. Evidently they haven't solved the anonymous, lazy Emergency Room visitor problem. And the $95 penalty is a joke.[or 1%]
You have skewered their flaw well! However, just stand back and watch as this ship-on-fire slowly enters the water isn't a very satisfying answer.

The Republicans coming forward once the ship sinks with the "I told you so" response may be correct but by then the massive damage to the system will be impossible to undo and fixing the canard will be the logical answer. I fear we won't get back what we once had.

Quote: Justme wrote in post #13

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Quote: Polybius wrote in post #11

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Quote: Polybius wrote in post #9

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My Miami Dolphins are playing on Thursday Night Football in half an hour (we will lose) so this was a little rushed. Can discuss more later. No TV on the boat, so, off to the Sports Bar.

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Well, how about that. The Dolphins actually won and beat 6-2 Cincinnati, in overtime, with a safety.

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Good for you! Not so much me

Obamascare looks like will collapse under its own wieght, as many have pointed out. Unless some crazy intervention. One problem imnsho is some wanted to be hero's and take it down against all odds. They now have a fierce loyal and loud following who they are indeed hero's to. But the truth is they failed, were going to fail and did little more than further split the party. Like it or not they are GOP and now the GOP is weaker, not stronger, because of division.

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Quote: ThirstyMan wrote in post #12

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@Polybius wrote:
.
" ..... <SNIP> ...."
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You have skewered their flaw well! However, just stand back and watch as this ship-on-fire slowly enters the water isn't a very satisfying answer.

The Republicans coming forward once the ship sinks with the "I told you so" response may be correct but by then the massive damage to the system will be impossible to undo and fixing the canard will be the logical answer. I fear we won't get back what we once had.

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