Forum - RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion

#16 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 9:57 am

Quote: Palinista wrote in post #13
Quote: Cedric wrote in post #12
I respectfully disagree.

I was in the anti-abortion battle when a brand new tool called "ultra-sound" became available.

We all said, "Hurray! Now that women can see the fingers and toes and beating hearts, they'll see that there's no way it's just a "mass of tissue", it's a baby, and no one would wanna kill a baby, right?"

No, if it ever was, it is no longer for a lack of knowledge that most women are having abortions.

Plan B will now be sold over the counter without benefit of an ultrasound.

And the 15 year old girls buying the abortafacient know, full well, why they're buying it.

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#17 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 9:58 am

Quote: Cedric wrote in post #12
Quote: Palinista wrote in post #8
Quote: Cedric wrote in post #7
I agree, and it's a touchy subject, but there simply must be a societal stigma attached to the act of killing babies in the womb, if we are ever to end this holocaust.

That's why informing the public is necessary. With the Plan B pill easily accessible and being sold as contraceptive, the issue is being clouded. Too many women do not understand reproduction and how their bodies work. They are not being informed by the schools and they do not know of ignorant they are. When they visit the doctor they do not know what questions to ask.

Later they MIGHT learn that the actions they have taken have lead to abortion. By that time it is too late. The deed has been done.

It's catching these women and getting their attention that is important. They need to have all of the facts. It's an uphill battle because people like to remain ignorant of things that scare them.

I respectfully disagree.

I was in the anti-abortion battle when a brand new tool called "ultra-sound" became available.

We all said, "Hurray! Now that women can see the fingers and toes and beating hearts, they'll see that there's no way it's just a "mass of tissue", it's a baby, and no one would wanna kill a baby, right?"

No, if it ever was, it is no longer for a lack of knowledge that most women are having abortions.

I'm in both camps on this one. I do agree that knowledge and informing the public is absolutely necessary. Example: My daughter counsels at a local Crisis Pregnancy Center. Last week she had a gal come in with the intent to abort. My daughter managed to talk her into coming back for an ultrasound first before making that decision. She agreed, and that appointment was yesterday. The result? The woman and her boyfriend (who also came) were shocked that they were seeing an actual baby and not just a 'blob of tissue' and are now considering keeping the child or adoption, but abortion is now off the table. All this due to information they were in desperate need of.

On the flip side Cedric is also correct in this instance that not all women are going to be swayed by this. Unfortunately many aren't, my daughter has other cases that sadly do not always end like the one yesterday. As long as murder remains legal (and I do believe that is what abortion is) -- some are going to justify it no matter what.

While I advocate and preach information and education like others....the sad truth is....we also need to change hearts along with the minds. And I personally believe there actually should be a stigma attached towards abortion. IF after being given all the information you need that this being is a living human being you are planning to abort, and you choose to go ahead and do it anyway, then there must be a stigma attached to your decision. If you choose to murder your own child you should have to live with the consequences!

America's hope is not the donkey or the elephant, but the Lamb.

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#18 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 9:59 am

Quote: Justme wrote in post #15
Quote: Palinista wrote in post #14
Quote: Justme wrote in post #11

Those are the lessons of family and church today. The undermining of those morals by our govt and society is the goal.

It is a very very very small section that is unaware of the biological facts, so small that it is not issue imo. Those who reject the morality only to regret it later get no pity from me. The child is still dead. The many others who don't regret it I have nothing but disgust for.

I've only talked deeply about this issue with two women who were willing to listen. The women that I spoke to did not have the facts. They had the opportunity of learning them but they chose not to. That way they could say, "Well... I didn't KNOW."

It's sad because now they do know.

They had abortions? If so, I simply don't believe them. You're nicer than I am.

One of them said to me that they used "that pill". Then they asked if I thought that was abortion. I did not ask them which one but they asked if I thought that was abortion, too. I said yes.

I couldn't say much after that because I didn't want to hurt her feelings. But she was upset.

The other woman married a man who cannot have children. So she shows no curiosity about her fertility at all. She ignores it because she cannot get pregnant now. But she wants to forget that there was a time before she got married.

People know abortion is wrong. They just do not want to look at it fully because they want to pretend that their ignorance shields them from responsibility. This is why the availability of Plan B is so insidious. Ignorance is bliss, women are told. Some hide in ignorance and secrecy.

Orthodoxy SUCKS.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Thomas Jefferson

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#19 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:04 am

Quote: conservgramma wrote in post #17
IF after being given all the information you need that this being is a living human being you are planning to abort, and you choose to go ahead and do it anyway, then there must be a stigma attached to your decision. If you choose to murder your own child you should have to live with the consequences!

What consequences?

It isn't illegal. Society allows it. Roe vs. Wade is here for the present time.

Women who have had abortions walk among us all of the time. We can't pick them out of a crowd.

I believe informing the public is helpful because when women come out of the shadows and talk about their past abortions it is powerful. Men are talking more now, too. People are re-evaluating their choices and admitting their fault. I believe they are brave to do this.

Orthodoxy SUCKS.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Thomas Jefferson

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#20 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:07 am (Last edited: Wed May 01, 2013 10:07 am)

Quote: Palinista wrote in post #18

One of them said to me that they used "that pill". Then they asked if I thought that was abortion. I did not ask them which one but they asked if I thought that was abortion, too. I said yes.

I couldn't say much after that because I didn't want to hurt her feelings. But she was upset.

The other woman married a man who cannot have children. So she shows no curiosity about her fertility at all. She ignores it because she cannot get pregnant now. But she wants to forget that there was a time before she got married.

People know abortion is wrong. They just do not want to look at it fully because they want to pretend that their ignorance shields them from responsibility. This is why the availability of Plan B is so insidious. Ignorance is bliss, women are told. Some hide in ignorance and secrecy.

I don't agree with the idea that people know abortion is wrong. Those who know its wrong do nott get abortions. The few that do must repent and live with the guilt for the rest of their lives. That is why a stigma is a good thing. They know others judge them and look down on them so their "out" is ignorance. PP and the liberal agenda demonize us, not them

I think these woman are lying to you, but not to themselves. And it worked, they got your pity.

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#21 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:07 am

Quote: Cedric wrote in post #16
Quote: Palinista wrote in post #13
Quote: Cedric wrote in post #12
I respectfully disagree.

I was in the anti-abortion battle when a brand new tool called "ultra-sound" became available.

We all said, "Hurray! Now that women can see the fingers and toes and beating hearts, they'll see that there's no way it's just a "mass of tissue", it's a baby, and no one would wanna kill a baby, right?"

No, if it ever was, it is no longer for a lack of knowledge that most women are having abortions.

Plan B will now be sold over the counter without benefit of an ultrasound.

And the 15 year old girls buying the abortafacient know, full well, why they're buying it.

Do they know it's a baby? Do they really? What have they been taught by their mothers or at school? How many of them are listening to their ignorant fifteen year old girlfriends who they shouldn't trust? There are still young girls who believe myths about pregnancy. They turn to their friends for advice who are misinformed.

I'm not saying the girl isn't responsible. I'm saying that I don't believe she knows all that you think she does.

Orthodoxy SUCKS.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Thomas Jefferson

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#22 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:11 am

Quote: Palinista wrote in post #19
Quote: conservgramma wrote in post #17
IF after being given all the information you need that this being is a living human being you are planning to abort, and you choose to go ahead and do it anyway, then there must be a stigma attached to your decision. If you choose to murder your own child you should have to live with the consequences!

What consequences?

It isn't illegal. Society allows it. Roe vs. Wade is here for the present time.

Women who have had abortions walk among us all of the time. We can't pick them out of a crowd.

I believe informing the public is helpful because when women come out of the shadows and talk about their past abortions it is powerful. Men are talking more now, too. People are re-evaluating their choices and admitting their fault. I believe they are brave to do this.

Yeah I know, unfortunately right now there are no legal consequences since our courts have now made murder legal. Sigh.

However, there should be societal consequences, and so I'm actually happy that the abortionist is seeing some of this and is complaining about it to Maddow!!!!

So I guess if we can't get abortion refused as to legality.....the best we can do regarding consequences is turn up the heat on 'stigma'. I'm fine with that. And I absolutely do agree with you about informing the public. 100% with you on that one.

America's hope is not the donkey or the elephant, but the Lamb.

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#23 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:14 am

Quote: Palinista wrote in post #21
Do they know it's a baby?

If they don't know it's a baby, why do they want to get rid of it?

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#24 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:16 am

Quote: Justme wrote in post #20

I think these woman are lying to you, but not to themselves. And it worked, they got your pity.

I'm not saying that over-all stigma and truth are not the correct weapons. I'm saying that after the fact a woman could become informed and hopefully choose not to have a second abortion.

These women didn't get my pity. They expected me to ignore the subject completely. I believe they had talked about it before and never heard anyone say that what they did was wrong. They were sharing a secret with me because they trusted me.

I wasn't about to look at them in judgement afterwards because of what they had said. I disagree with what they did but not their admitting it. It's not my place to judge their hearts. They have to live with what they have done, not me.

Orthodoxy SUCKS.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Thomas Jefferson

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#25 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:17 am

There are consequences.

1. The Silent Scream!

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#26 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:19 am

Quote: Cedric wrote in post #23
Quote: Palinista wrote in post #21
Do they know it's a baby?

If they don't know it's a baby, why do they want to get rid of it?

Girls want to STOP SOMETHING because Mom is going to kill them.

I don't believe that all of them understand the totality of what they are doing. And they certainly don't understand afterwards if they only have their own counsel and that of another stupid teenage girl as they stand in the aisle of the drugstore.

Orthodoxy SUCKS.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Thomas Jefferson

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#27 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:25 am

Quote: Palinista wrote in post #24

I'm not saying that over-all stigma and truth are not the correct weapons. I'm saying that after the fact a woman could become informed and hopefully choose not to have a second abortion.

You are giving them a benefit of doubt I do not give them. No woman gets an abortion not aware they are killing.

Zitat
These women didn't get my pity.

Maybe not, but they controlled the discussion... "I couldn't say much after that because I didn't want to hurt her feelings."

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#28 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:29 am

Quote: Palinista wrote in post #26
Quote: Cedric wrote in post #23
Quote: Palinista wrote in post #21
Do they know it's a baby?

If they don't know it's a baby, why do they want to get rid of it?

Girls want to STOP SOMETHING because Mom is going to kill them.

{Before going any further: Thank you for wading in and counseling these women.}

Again, if there's nothin' wrong with it and it's not a baby, why would Mom kill them?

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#29 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:30 am

Quote: Justme wrote in post #27
Quote: Palinista wrote in post #24

I'm not saying that over-all stigma and truth are not the correct weapons. I'm saying that after the fact a woman could become informed and hopefully choose not to have a second abortion.

You are giving them a benefit of doubt I do not give them. No woman gets an abortion not aware they are killing.

Zitat
These women didn't get my pity.

Maybe not, but they controlled the discussion... "I couldn't say much after that because I didn't want to hurt her feelings."

Right. I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I am not the ultimate judge. My hope is that now that she heard the truth that she will understand what she has done. Unless and until she does that she won't find repentance. And as a Christian woman I know that my words cut into her heart. She did not know what she had done. She asked me what I thought. I told her what I thought. There was nothing else to say.

She will live with the consequences. I have no control of that. What she wanted me to say was, "It's no big deal." Others probably told her that. And now I know she regrets asking me.

Orthodoxy SUCKS.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Thomas Jefferson

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#30 | RE: Abortionist Complains to Maddow That Pro-Lifers Have Worsened 'Stigma' Toward Abortion datum

Wed May 01, 2013 10:32 am

Quote: Cedric wrote in post #28
Quote: Palinista wrote in post #26
Quote: Cedric wrote in post #23
Quote: Palinista wrote in post #21
Do they know it's a baby?

If they don't know it's a baby, why do they want to get rid of it?

Girls want to STOP SOMETHING because Mom is going to kill them.

{Before going any further: Thank you for wading in and counseling these women.}

Again, if there's nothin' wrong with it and it's not a baby, why would Mom kill them?

But not every mother tells them that abortion is murder.

Orthodoxy SUCKS.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Thomas Jefferson

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